Author Topic: Ex-Albanians  (Read 614 times)

Dema

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Re: Ex-Albanians
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2019, 09:42:59 PM »
The map is based on the 2003 census, so it wasn't painted by any random person without any source. Also the Kuci area (just NE of Podgorica and right on the border with Kelmend) is mainly a mix of Serbs and Montenegrins, the Albanians you have in mind are from Triesh and the SE part of Kuci (Koja and surrounding villages). Perhaps some of the Serbs have begun to identify as Montenegrin now, though I don't know of any evidence which suggests that.

This isn't relevant, but it was in response to your post where you said you disagreed that the clan identify as Serbs.


Of course that i disagree that clans identify as Serbs since these clans dont exist anymore and they never identified as Serbs. Maybe part of their offsprings are serbicised today but that is whole another story. But you simply refuse to understand this.  If anything they are Montenegrins which difference i already explained above but you are being persistent.

I never said Serbs started to declare Montenegrins in Montenegro but rather that Montenegrins started to declare as Montenegrins. Which is contrary of what you tried to imply here. Read better.

At the end of day they they are of Albanian origin and they declare Serbs or Montenegrins today because of slavicization of their territory. It is their absolute right to declare however they want.

Ujkan Vushaj

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Re: Ex-Albanians
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2019, 09:53:47 PM »
At the end of day they they are of Albanian origin and they declare Serbs or Montenegrins today because of slavicization of their territory. It is their absolute right to declare however they want.
I agree that they have Albanian origin, I haven't stated anything contrary to that.



Duhan

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Re: Ex-Albanians
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2019, 04:01:30 PM »
I want to ask regarding Skerd's post here:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?300420-why-kosova-isn-t-part-of-albania&p=6230270&highlight=#post6230270

I agree with the idea that most of the EV13, R1B in serbs are pretty much from assimilated Albanians or Vlachs.

But I still dont understand how they have such a lack of J2b2? If EV13, and R1b in serbs were originally Albanian, and since they do seem to have quite a big frequency of these amounts in some areas (especially montenegro) how come the lack of J2b2?

Ujkan Vushaj

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Re: Ex-Albanians
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2019, 05:18:15 PM »
I want to ask regarding Skerd's post here:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?300420-why-kosova-isn-t-part-of-albania&p=6230270&highlight=#post6230270

I agree with the idea that most of the EV13, R1B in serbs are pretty much from assimilated Albanians or Vlachs.

But I still dont understand how they have such a lack of J2b2? If EV13, and R1b in serbs were originally Albanian, and since they do seem to have quite a big frequency of these amounts in some areas (especially montenegro) how come the lack of J2b2?
It's probably just due to J2b2 carriers not having that many sons and E-V13/R1b having more. Could also argue that it never was all that common among Serbs/South Slavs to begin with, seems like most of the clans they assimilated were either E-V13 (Kuci, Vasojevici, Bjelopavlici etc) or R1b (Piperi, Moracani etc).

Duhan

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Re: Ex-Albanians
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2019, 07:40:53 PM »
It's probably just due to J2b2 carriers not having that many sons and E-V13/R1b having more. Could also argue that it never was all that common among Serbs/South Slavs to begin with, seems like most of the clans they assimilated were either E-V13 (Kuci, Vasojevici, Bjelopavlici etc) or R1b (Piperi, Moracani etc).

Yeah thats a good argument. Which J2b2 clans had most contact with the Serbs? Wouldn't it have been the Hoti and Krasniqi?

Ujkan Vushaj

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Re: Ex-Albanians
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2019, 10:31:41 PM »
Yeah thats a good argument. Which J2b2 clans had most contact with the Serbs? Wouldn't it have been the Hoti and Krasniqi?
I would say Hoti or Gruda (most of Gruda seems to be J-Y23094) had the most contact. Both these tribes were primarily located in Montenegro, and so it's natural that they would've had more interactions with the neighbouring Slavic speaking tribes. Both these tribes did also, at occasion, ally with the Montenegrin tribes against the Ottomans (for instance in the 17th Century).

The Krasniqi, as far as I know, didn't have much contact with the Serbs. They likely originate somewhere around Tropoja, a region which doesn't seem to have had much Slavic influence or contact. Though they (and Hoti for that matter) did have oral tradition stating that they share a common ancestor (Keq Preka) with Vasojevici and Piperi, though genetics has disproved this belief. 


Dema

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Re: Ex-Albanians
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2019, 01:30:04 PM »
Regarding J2b-L283, i see these days on Eupedia that people are starting to mention J2-L283>PH1602 lately.
As it seems one portion of Montenegrin but also Croatian and Serb J2-L283 samples are falling under this subclade.

As it seems PH1602 might be subclade that lived thru similar destiny just as E-v13>PH1246 and J2-M205>Y22066.
Meaning they were native to Montenegro and surrounding area but endured slavicization of their territory and therefore bottlenecked out of Albanian ethnos.
PH1602 falls under Y15058 which is equal brother clade to Z638 (main Albanian cluster under L283).

Therefore as it can be seen from ancient bones, Dalmatian L283 sample completely bottlenecked from Dalmatian coast where he lived once, and his closest relatives are among L283 Italians and Albanians.  Also brother clade of main Albanian L283 cluster now lives slavicized among Croats, Serbs, Montenegrins or Bosnians.

So i am sure L283 also had its bad moments in history and its not like they were more picky where they will live or assimilate as Duhan has tried to imply before similar as now but simply there are many factors and there is entire story to be told and we should not hurry with conclusions.

I  have take a look at PH1602 before, i have looked at locations of samples from Serbian DNA project also i was trying to analyse it thru Yfull tree. I have few of my opinions and i might post in Eupedia soon if i find time. But as i can already read there and as i see people are saying that Flor is connecting it with more Northern Illyrian line and i agree with such a point of view. Going by all evidences and facts i also connect it to Illyrian or more likely later formed Albanian population.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 02:42:55 PM by Dema »

Flor

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Re: Ex-Albanians
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2019, 02:57:24 PM »
Good points Dema.

Just quickly wanted to add that the majority of Montenegrin J-L283 is actually in the J-Z638 branch. J-PH1602 definitely seems more northern. While their most prominent tribes don't seem to have much J-L283, AFAIK, there is a Montenegrin tribe that's J-L283>>Z638>>Z631 (J-Z631). Can't think of the tribe name now.

Ujkan Vushaj

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Re: Ex-Albanians
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2019, 03:15:58 PM »
Good points Dema.

Just quickly wanted to add that the majority of Montenegrin J-L283 is actually in the J-Z638 branch. J-PH1602 definitely seems more northern. While their most prominent tribes don't seem to have much J-L283, AFAIK, there is a Montenegrin tribe that's J-L283>>Z638>>Z631 (J-Z631). Can't think of the tribe name now.
As far as I know, J-Z631>Y98609 was found in a branch of the Bukumiri tribe (natives of the Bratonozici tribal area). The name of the tribe is clearly of Albanian etymology, interestingly a man named Nika Bukumjera (Bukumira) and his son Gjon were recorded in 1411 in Montenegro. These guys were most definitely Albanians and it's possible that the Bukumiri took their name from him. Should also be noted that Bukmire is a village in Sume, Shkoder.

There is also a branch of the Bjelica tribe that is J-Z631, they fall under the Mikulic brotherhood which is considered to be one of the older brotherhoods.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 07:53:22 PM by Ujkan Vushaj »

Leki

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Re: Ex-Albanians
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2019, 07:34:53 PM »
Another Bukimiri has recently tested as V13>Y37092 (Vasojevici cluster) from what I am seeing.
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Ujkan Vushaj

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Re: Ex-Albanians
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2019, 08:46:09 PM »
Another Bukimiri has recently tested as V13>Y37092 (Vasojevici cluster) from what I am seeing.
Interesting, seems like he's from Berane. Some families from Herzegovina which claim origin from the Mataruga also seem to fall under E-V13>Y37092 If I recall correctly, the origin of the clan has been argued to be either Albanian or Vlach.

The Bukumiri seem to be heterogeneous, multiple families which claim descent from them end up belonging to different haplogroups. There was a family from Trpezi, Petnjica, that tested as R-Y32147. The Bosniak project puts these Bukumiri in the same cluster as Agovic so they could be Y32147>Y82919.

Leki

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Re: Ex-Albanians
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2019, 10:01:12 PM »
Interesting, seems like he's from Berane. Some families from Herzegovina which claim origin from the Mataruga also seem to fall under E-V13>Y37092 If I recall correctly, the origin of the clan has been argued to be either Albanian or Vlach.

The Bukumiri seem to be heterogeneous, multiple families which claim descent from them end up belonging to different haplogroups. There was a family from Trpezi, Petnjica, that tested as R-Y32147. The Bosniak project puts these Bukumiri in the same cluster as Agovic so they could be Y32147>Y82919.
Yes, from Berane but they are with origin from Kuqi region. Bukemiri and Mataguzhi were part of the Anas groups that inhabited that region before Kuqi started to expand. This is definitely interesting development as far as Vasojevici’s origin are concerned.

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Ujkan Vushaj

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Re: Ex-Albanians
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2019, 10:23:48 PM »
Yes, from Berane but they are with origin from Kuqi region. Bukemiri and Mataguzhi were part of the Anas groups that inhabited that region before Kuqi started to expand. This is definitely interesting development as far as Vasojevici’s origin are concerned.
I find the Mataguzi pretty interesting, in the early 15th Century they were recorded as having been in a land conflict with the Old Hoti. There is a village called Mataguz near lake Shkodra, so perhaps they originally came from there.

According to oral traditions, the Beqaj and Kernaj of Grude and Puraj of Kuci believe to have come from Mataguzi. Considering that Beqaj tested as J-Y19093 and Kernaj tested as J1 on 23andme, the Mataguzi may have also been Y19093. Y19093 seems very interesting as it's mainly present in the Albanians from Montenegro by the looks of it, I've seen that some Bosniaks from Sanxhak are Y19093 though they claim origin from Malesi (Hoti, Kuci and Kelmendi).