Author Topic: Ex-Albanians  (Read 243 times)

Ski

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Ex-Albanians
« on: August 28, 2019, 03:35:30 AM »
Hi! I am opening this thread to list the very interesting cases of previously Albanian families, brotherhoods and tribes who used to be Albanian but have been assimilated into another ethnicity. Most of the modern descendants of these lines are in complete denial, so we can help them rediscover their past by bringing evidence of the truth. Fortunately, this evidence can now be enhanced by genetic data.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 03:37:58 AM by Ski »

Ski

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Re: Ex-Albanians
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2019, 05:06:27 AM »
Tribe Kuçi, Montenegro

Today, most of them they consider themselves either Serbs or Montenegrins. However, there is plenty of evidence of their Albanian origin:

- Kuqi means "red" in Albanian.
- It was first mentioned as a surname in North Albania (14th cent).
- In the Venetian Land Register (1416-1417), the surname Kuçi appears mostly with typical Albanian names: Aleks (Alessio), Andre, Gjergj, Gjergj, Gjon, Maz, Menkez, Nikolle, Pal, Peter, Peter, Peter, Vigjeg, Voin. Most of them live in Sordan and Bardhan, placenames with Albanian origin.
- In 1616 they were led by Lala Drekali (Ndreka)
- There are still Kuçi Albanians, mostly around Koja e Kuçit. They are the only remaining non-Slavicized part of the tribe.
- There are numerous other Kuçi and Kuçi-related placenames and family names in Albanian lands, as far south as Vlore.
- Many Albanian stradioti had the surname Cuccia, and there are Cuccia Arberesh even today. One Cuccia from Sicily is R-CTS9219 (23andme).
- Tradition links it with Albanian tribe Berisha, and there is even a legend that they of ancestry from Gjergj Kastrioti, a self-declared Albanian.

From historical evidence we see that the Kuçi name and tribe are associated with Albanians from its earliest historical mentions to the present.

Someone might think that the Slavic speakers don't have a common origin with the Albanian ones, but most Slavic Kuçi are E-V13>Z16661, which is also found in the Albanian brotherhoods. As far as I understand, this is an ancient Balkan line. So they have a non-Slavic past, and non-Slavic cousins today.

So, from their DNA results we can determine that the ancestors of Kuçi were non-Slavic until at least the 6th century. From historical evidence we have strong links with Albanian from the 14th century. Since then, most have been assimilated into the Slavic ethnicities but several Albanian and Arberesh lines still remain, as a reminder of the past.

Dema

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Re: Ex-Albanians
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2019, 01:30:14 PM »
Montenegrins are for most part slavicised Paleo-Balkan population with Albanian traditions. From which most part is due to assimilation of Albanians (usually by force). Montenegrin extremely high and unusual (for Slavic population) E-v13 percentage testifies to this. As E-v13 is primary (percentage wise) Albanian haplogroup and with extreme geographical proximity to Albanians it is very clear where this compound comes from. However, in Montenegrin's,  there is also decent Slavic influence which we can connect to Slavic arrival to Balkans and the carriers of Slavic language they speak today. Most of tribal area and tribes of Montenegro have their roots in Albanian population or very similar to Albanian.
Along with E-v13 there is usually also high percentage of other none-Slavic haplogroups, or at least that did not arrive with South Slavic 7th century expansion to Balkans, haplogroups like J1, J2, R1b, T1, and few others. Serbs are claiming Montenegrin's due to their language and religion, but fact is that Montenegrin's are more close to Albanians due to their blood and traditions. Most of Serbian E-v13 comes from places that are known for none-Serb population as: South Serbia (known to be heavily populated with Albanians only 100 years ago), Montenegro (also known for its Albanian traditions, tribes, customs and geo. proximity to Albanians.), Republika Srpska in Bosnia and parts of so called Krajina in Croatia (its population known to migrated there from South Serbia and Montenegro around 14th century, they considered themselves Vlachs but its clear they are for most part slavicised Albanians).


Also i would like to again bring focus to genetic study on Slovenians, its important because its clear that both Serbs and Slovenians have same South Slavic ancestor that arrived with 7th century Slavic expansion. Their language is almost identical and their Slavic haplogroups which in both cases reach around 50 % are matching perfectly. Just the fact is that Slovens have only 3 % of E-v13 while in Montenegrin's and partially Serbs this percentage can go up to 10x higher which is clear indicator that original Slavs did not have this enormous portion of E-v13 but also already mentioned none-Slavic haplogroups.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/251567977_The_paternal_perspective_of_the_Slovenian_population_and_its_relationship_with_other_populations

East and North Slavs have around 1 - 3 % of E-v13 in specific East and North Slavic subclades. While Albanians have up to 40 % in some areas. Serbian and Montenegrin E-v13 is without doubt in most part connected to slavicised Albanian population.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 01:50:54 PM by Dema »

shestani

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Re: Ex-Albanians
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2019, 01:48:31 AM »
Montenegrins are for most part slavicised Paleo-Balkan population with Albanian traditions. From which most part is due to assimilation of Albanians (usually by force). Montenegrin extremely high and unusual (for Slavic population) E-v13 percentage testifies to this. As E-v13 is primary (percentage wise) Albanian haplogroup and with extreme geographical proximity to Albanians it is very clear where this compound comes from. However, in Montenegrin's,  there is also decent Slavic influence which we can connect to Slavic arrival to Balkans and the carriers of Slavic language they speak today. Most of tribal area and tribes of Montenegro have their roots in Albanian population or very similar to Albanian.
Along with E-v13 there is usually also high percentage of other none-Slavic haplogroups, or at least that did not arrive with South Slavic 7th century expansion to Balkans, haplogroups like J1, J2, R1b, T1, and few others. Serbs are claiming Montenegrin's due to their language and religion, but fact is that Montenegrin's are more close to Albanians due to their blood and traditions. Most of Serbian E-v13 comes from places that are known for none-Serb population as: South Serbia (known to be heavily populated with Albanians only 100 years ago), Montenegro (also known for its Albanian traditions, tribes, customs and geo. proximity to Albanians.), Republika Srpska in Bosnia and parts of so called Krajina in Croatia (its population known to migrated there from South Serbia and Montenegro around 14th century, they considered themselves Vlachs but its clear they are for most part slavicised Albanians).


Also i would like to again bring focus to genetic study on Slovenians, its important because its clear that both Serbs and Slovenians have same South Slavic ancestor that arrived with 7th century Slavic expansion. Their language is almost identical and their Slavic haplogroups which in both cases reach around 50 % are matching perfectly. Just the fact is that Slovens have only 3 % of E-v13 while in Montenegrin's and partially Serbs this percentage can go up to 10x higher which is clear indicator that original Slavs did not have this enormous portion of E-v13 but also already mentioned none-Slavic haplogroups.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/251567977_The_paternal_perspective_of_the_Slovenian_population_and_its_relationship_with_other_populations

East and North Slavs have around 1 - 3 % of E-v13 in specific East and North Slavic subclades. While Albanians have up to 40 % in some areas. Serbian and Montenegrin E-v13 is without doubt in most part connected to slavicised Albanian population.

Of all of the E-V13 Montenegrins, do the subclades for them, link to Albanian tribes?  Examples?

Ujkan Vushaj

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Re: Ex-Albanians
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2019, 03:35:34 PM »
Of all of the E-V13 Montenegrins, do the subclades for them, link to Albanian tribes?  Examples?
The two Brda Montenegrin clans that are E-V13 and have an association with Albanians are the Kuci and Bjelopavlici/Palbardhi.

The Kuci (Drekalovici and Mrnjavcevici) fall under E-BY165837. BY165837 is also common among the Trieshi (Bankeqi brotherhood) who seem to share a common ancestor with Kuci ~1,100 years ago, this group is also present among the Albanian families in Kuc and some Albanian families from Koja who are considered to be the natives of the region (Gjeloshaj and Ivanaj families, though it also seems to be present in the Nucullaj who are from Kastrat originally). I'm pretty sure this clade was also found in some Albanians from Macedonia who  were tested in a study. Both the Mrnjavcevici and Drekalovici brotherhoods of Kuc claim descent from around Shkodra, where interestingly the surname Kuci was first recorded (somewhere around Kastrat and Shkrel in Malesi during the 14th century). The Drekalovici for one were Albanians up until the 16-17th century. The Albanian families also believe to hail from Berishe.

The Bjelopavlici belong to E-Y133830. They seem to have matches in Croatia, Austria and Hungary though they don't seem to be too close to them. Y133830's brother clade, E-FT12534, has been found in an Albanian from Skrapar and also in a Frenchman from Maine-et-Loire. Iirc it's very likely that an Albanian from Konispol belongs to Y133830 and seems to be the closest match to the Bjelopavlici. The Bjelopavlici themselves claim origin from Dukagjin, so an Albanian origin is likely given their oral tradition and the potential link with the Albanian from Konispol.

There are also other V13 clades present in Montenegrins which could be linked to Albanians. For example PH2180 seems to be found there and this group is a pretty typical Albanian cluster.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 06:18:11 PM by Ujkan Vushaj »