Author Topic: Origin of the Albanians (Facts, Myths, Analysis, etc)  (Read 6738 times)

Flor

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Origin of the Albanians (Facts, Myths, Analysis, etc)
« on: November 10, 2017, 06:50:33 PM »
As I posted in the Albanian section, an "analysis" of our subgroups by the moderator NikolaVuk of the Serbian DNA forum, Poreklo, caught my attention: https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=183.msg70303#msg70303

It's evident he is doing his best to prove our main haplogroups are of "Thracian" origin. Since he has repeated the same "analysis" several times, which seems wishful thinking, and cherry-picking (some of which is based on incorrect and missing info), I feel like I need to respond. In quotation is NikolaVuk's "analysis" (Google Translated), which is then followed by my responses.

Quote from: NikolaVuk
I would give an overview of the subtype of the haplogroups E V13, J2b2 M241 and R1b PF7562 and Z2103 commonly tested by Albanians and Bulgarians:

- E V13> Z5018> S2979> FGC33621 - the branch through which the genus Berisha was profiled , because it was found in several members of this Albanian fiss; he also owns a Bulgarian from the seafaring region, and he is close to the Albanians tested by the Albanians

It's true that the cluster Berisha/Sopi are in (E-FGC33621>FGC33625) there is a Bulgarian with a shared most recent ancestor of ~3000 years, which is not "close". And obviously this doesn't in any way prove a Thracian origin of this cluster. In fact, the closest match this cluster has is an Italian. They share E-FGC33625 with an estimated TMRCA of 2700 years, which would suggest at least 2700 year presence in the area of Western Balkans. See L618-V13 Draft Tree from E-M35 Project: http://community.haplozone.net

Quote from: NikolaVuk
E-V13> Z5018> S2979> FGC11457> FGC11450 - in this branch there are Albanians and Bulgarians who are negative in the deeper sub-territory BY4793

E-FGC11450 has two distinct Albanian clusters with no close relationship. Furthermore, its TMRCA is ~3200 ybp. So it's expected there would be others Balkan ethnicities in this subclade.

Quote from: NikolaVuk
E V13> Z5018> S2979> Z16659> L241 - a very widespread sub-branch, so it should not be surprising that there are also matching here;

In agreement here. However, within the Balkans, the diversity of E-L241 seems to be in the Western area, pointing to likely origin.

No mention of E-CTS9320, which makes up a good chunk of Albanian E-V13 and forms several "Albanian" sub-branches. Sounds like cherry picking only certain subclades which you think are likely "Thracian" origin. However, my points above contradicts this :)

Quote from: NikolaVuk
J2b2 M241> Z628> Z638> Z1296> Z1297> Y23094- Podgrana, which occurs at Klimenata-Nikča and Škrelja , also has Bulgarians (one is Y23094 *, the other is Y36202, originated from Plovdiv)

Where can I begin here. First of all it should be noted that J2b2-M241 makes up a distinct "European" branch in J2b2a-L283 which is ~6000 years old, and where all Albanian M241 falls. You are missing three key facts here, some of which you are aware of but fail to mention due to cherry-picking analysis :)

1. J2b2a-L283 has been found in Dalmatia (Illyrian territory) from ca. 1600 BCE, which is most likely a Proto-Illyrian skeleton. And so far none in the Easter Balkans (Thracian territory):


2. Thus far the majority of Albanian J2b2-L283 falls under subclade: J2b2-PH2967 or J-Y20899 at YFull, which you didn't even mention, estimated at 4300 years old. The results of two Albanian BigY's state the most recent common ancestor lived 2400 years ago (Illyrian Times), and this subclade does not even have one sample from the Eastern Balkans as of yet:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y20899/

3. And now the response regarding J2b2-Z1297>>Y23094 subclade. J-Y23094 is a minimum of 3600 years old, and has a widespread Balkan, Italian, and European distribution: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y23094/ 
Sample YF08113 at YFull (J-Y23094*) is kit 306834. He is in fact Bulgarian from Bulqizë District Albania, and not from Bulgaria, as can be seen here: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/m241?iframe=yresults   
Furthermore, he is in a close cluster with several Albanians and no Bulgarians. So Albanians in subclade J-Y23094 have no Bulgarian match in the last ~3600 years. Our Shkreli example has some distinct STRs in comparison to our Kelmendi example, even though both J-Y23094. Therefore, it's quite possible Shkreli forms a distinct J-Y23094 line, possibly another J-Y23094* line in Albania.

Quote from: NikolaVuk
J2b2 M241> Z628> Z638> Z1296> Z1297> Z1295 - the Albanians are profiled "hot" and "point" clusters of this subframe, Bugarin with Yfull is also a member of this branch (deeper sub-base - Y21878> CTS11100> Y37121, originating from Pazardzhik )

J2b2-Z1295 subclade is a minimum of 3900 years old, with a widespread Balkan, Italian, and European distribution: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1295/
As you have noticed, we have two distinct Z1295 clusters: "Hoti" Cluster and a "Thaçi" Cluster. None of them is a match to any Bulgarian. In fact, both clusters have matches in Greece where as we know there is Arvanite population.

Quote from: NikolaVuk
R1b M269> PF7562> PF7563 - most commonly occurs as a genetic marker of the Albanian fishes Shala , and there are also Bulgarians positive on this subgroup (Bugarin from Veliki Trnov is PF7563 *, and Bugarin (maybe Pomak) from Blagoevgrad belongs to branch PF7563> Y31335 * )

R1b-PF7563 branch is a minimum of 4700 years old, with a widespread distribution: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7563/
We have two distinct PF7563 haplotypes.  As you point out, the Shala tribe forms one of them, and a Gashi tribesman forms another one. Difficult to say about their deeper classification without further SNP testing.

Quote from: NikolaVuk
R1b M269> L23> Z2103>- a very widespread branch among the Albanians, and its sub-region Z2705> Y33200 *; One of the Bulgarians (Pomak) from Blagoevgrad belongs to the mentioned sub-region, while another Bugarin (Pomak) from Blagoevgrad belongs to a special sub-region Y37280

First of all, you fail to mention that R1b-Z2103 (where the Albanian BY611>Z2705 stems from) has been found in the Vucedol culture, dated ~4700 years ago, regarded by some as a Proto-Illyrian culture, and so far none in the Eastern Balkans. It's true there is a few Bulgarians in this group, which is dominated by Albanians. However, without more BigY/FullGenomes testing of Balkan BY611 samples, nothing conclusive can be said regarding the origin of R-BY611>Z2705. But considering there is two distinct BY611 Italian sub-branches one of whom may be Arbëresh, YF08067 (see: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3141-R1b-CTS9219&p=215244&viewfull=1#post215244), and ancient DNA evidence, its origin is favored in the Western Balkans instead of Eastern.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 03:56:13 AM by Flor »

Leki

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The Origins of Albanians (Facts, Myths, Analysis, etc)
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2017, 06:59:38 PM »
Nice job Flor! They seem to have made progress though so give him a break bro. At least they're placing us now in the Balkans hahaha. Remember the good old days of Caucasus and all the other obscure tribes they could think of?

Granted E-V13 is divers in Bulgaria but as far as R1b-BY611 and J2b2-L283 is concerned, while looking at their project, seem pretty thin over there: out of 660 samples only 10 under Z1296 (not counting the Y23094* 'bulgarian' from Bulqize who is actually a geneaoligical match to Rukaj (Kelmend), Kaziu (Diber) and more distantly related to Shkreli samples) and 5 under R1b-BY611 (one from Macedonia and one Pomak) who all seem to be under Y33200*, one of them even belonging to one of its subclades, Y37280 (all related to us within 1300 year period). I see more J2b2-L283 and R1b-BY611 samples and diversity at the Serbian project lmao. Remind me again why are they singling out E-FGC33625? This group is not that large and is showing some diversity between Berisha-Sopi-Pula. E-CTS9320 is definitely as interesting, more evenly distributed and more divers among us along with E-L241. If that's their 'evidence' of our Thracian origin I have to say they are in trouble, because those branches seem more interesting across the Adriatic so far.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter or make a difference if we descent from Thacians, Illyrians or any other uknown paleo Balkan tribe etc. However, looking  at the current data and the available ancient DNA as you have demonstrated definitely is positing us toward west: J-L283, R-Z2103 & E-L618 (we shall be able to tell more I guess once the raw data is released, if they're positive for any of the downstream branches)

It's halarious however seeing them trying so hard to 'prove' what has been ingrained into their heads for generations now; that somehow they were in Albania before us but we misteriosly appeared out of nowhere and were capable of totally clensing them out, at least in central to north Albania (sounds like a cartoon movie to me, really lol).Their indoctrination is really severe; and therefore makes them incapable of thinking outside of that framework which restricts them from seeing the real picture and being objective. They're amusing like little children are, very entertaining  to say the least,  honestly.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 07:10:01 AM by Leki »
<Gjuha âsht tulit e gjithshka bluen>

Flor

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« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2017, 04:51:40 AM »
Good point Leki. They indeed have made progress, by placing us now in the Balkans. I see they're into damage control after my response to NikolaVuk.
I even see "Simo" aka Siniša Jerković (one of the Serbian DNA Project Administrators) doing his best to rescue NikolaVuk by seemingly discrediting my response.

Speaking of Mr. Siniša Jerković and the old days when they tried to find connections with Caucuses, here is his post from a coupe of years ago when he claimed our Kelmendi-Rukaj (Prek Gjelosh) example is J2a, when in fact he is J2b2-L283, one of our main haplogroups as can be seen here: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/AlbanianBloodlines?iframe=yresults

He even claimed his subgroup is charachteristic of Caucusus peoples of Chechens and Ingush. Very dishonest to say the least. Google translated:

Quote from: Siniša Jerković
Otherwise, now that I watched the J2 Project, I see that it was tested as J2a and a Catholic from Klimenta in Albania. As an ancestor, Preko Gjelos says. Interestingly, he is not the same branch of haplogroup J2a as Perunovic. Gjelosh enters a subgroup that is characteristic of the Caucasus peoples of Chechens and Ingush. I know that there has already been a lot of writing about Caucasian Albania and the origin of the Albanians from the Caucasus. I do not quote water on that vodka, but this is some kind of first connection of the kind that I see.

Link: https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=52.msg9328#msg9328

And we've heard their project is run by "very serious people". Sure, LOL...

Dema

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« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2017, 07:48:13 AM »
Continuation in English from Albanian section:



Even in this thread they had to mention me. They from Poreklo are really obsessed with me. And i know why, but unfortunately this obsession will remain only illusion and fantasy of their falsificating "historians/ethnographers".

Its very funny when one "Serb" with haplogroup H1 makes fun of Albanians regarding their physical look,, and its not surprising that he programmed Nevski calculator when in India they are famous as low cost programmers.

Then there is this "Nikola Vuk" who says that we were Islamised in 18 century and Albanised in 19 century based on his Serb book. Its ridiculous to say at least.

He doesn't know that in 18 cet we already stolen a wife from nearby Serbian village "Budrika", and Islamised and Albanised her in the process. Then in 17 century we already owned Zhegra village and neighbor territories in feudal way, Dema brotherhood from Demovit mohalla in Zhegra. Things that should be very well recorded in Ottoman registers in Istambul. Also, my family back home is claiming that there is mountain nearby from which we come down to flat surfaces. (We will know more about it soon, together with testing of second line of Dema family).

As it seems Nikola Vuk does not understand that in his silly book (Atanasije Urošević – Gornja Morava i Izmornik 1929-1935) Yugoslav authors and censors have only one purpose, and that purpose is to separate population to this two categories:

1. Gheg Albanian 17 cet tribal expansion from Malësia.
2. Old Orthodox Kosovo Albanians, many types of various Vlahs, also other minorities which where all put under category of "Serb".

This book has only one purpose, and that is to represent Kosovo like it was 100% ethnically Serbian prior to 17 century Gheg - North Albanian expansion. Which is very laughable and its not accepted by any world historian. (Also this specific part is debunked in Noel Malcolm book about Kosovo history and also by modern genetic studies).

Then again in the same thread Nikola Vuk does not even understand that "Balkan mainland" branch of J2b1 is also PH4306+, therefore there is nothing wrong with my classification in Albanian Bloodlines Project as it stands: J2b1-M205>CTS1969>PH4306.

And besides Demic - Okirus, barely anyone there speaks or accepts facts that these are all Vlahs from Bosnia and Croatia assimilated in Serbian ethnos. Example - https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=195.msg70252#msg70252

Also its pretty clear that they don't have anything in reality with Serbian ethnos, with TMRCA 600-900 years and all closest relatives in Levant and Middle East. (all except Lakic, Vlah from Bosnia who seem to have somewhat little more difference but nothing significant). More specific, Vlahs with native Levantine origin, not to be confused with Aromun Vlahs.

And also they from Poreklo attentionally never mention, rather they hide facts that i have two unique marker values where none of them has variations. Its medium mutation rate markers DYS448=20 and DYS389II=27, where separation happens to be 1000 - 1200 years ago, so in time of Byzant almost as our overall TMRCA, and not in the last 200 years as proposed by above mentioned "ethnograph". But also generally j2b1 has no connection with Serbo-Slav genetics except of few recently assimilated Orthodox Vlahs.

These things are 100% debunked, just as when regarding Albanian genetics its clear that its Indo-European just as Albanian language is Indo-European. Just as most notable writer about this thematic in times of Yugoslavia has wrote about. Prof.dr. Aleksandar Stipčević where all of his books were published by highest Croatian institutes "Školska knjiga Zagreb" and "Matica Hrvatska". On the first page of his book about Illyrians, its very well written where he declares that Albanians are the only direct decedents of ancient Illyrians. Where he very beautifully elaborates these basics in details and gives references for all his claims where there is open possibility of further study.

So i would suggest to Nikola Vuk and others there to start reading real books from realistic authors and to stop wasting time on some forum behaving like spoiled children trying to represent history just as it suites them.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 04:18:15 PM by Dema »

Dema

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« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2017, 10:00:35 AM »
I see they're into damage control after my response to NikolaVuk.

He even claimed his subgroup is charachteristic of Caucusus peoples of Chechens and Ingush. Very dishonest to say the least. Google translated:

Link: https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=52.msg9328#msg9328



What is funny is what now Nikola Vuk says:

"Тачно. Приметио сам да неки људи (између осталих и Фљор, мада врло тенденциозно) који се баве овом тематиком на генетику гледају као на "магични штапић" који у једном потезу може да нам прикаже целокупну историјску слику одређеног феномена, без икаквог консултовања са осталим наукама, тј. без интердисциплинарности. С обзиром да је генетичка генеалогија још увек само хоби заинтересованих појединаца, такво размишљање је, по мени, веома неозбиљно; она свакако није свемоћна у интерпретацији тих феномена као што неки желе да прикажу."
https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=183.msg70592#msg70592

Practically what he says is that, he noticed that many of people who are into genetic genealogy, including you Flor, look at it as magic wand that can tell everything, without consulting with other scientific areas. Also he says that since genetic genealogy is only a hobby of few interested enthusiasts and not serious science, this kind of thinking is not serious to say at least.

Then he continues saying that Albanian history is uncertain, unknown, and unsure and that is what troubles us:
"У сваком случају, очигледно их боли преиспитивање њихове врло климаве историјске, лингвистичке а у скорије време и генетске везе са Илирима и присуством на подручју Велике Албаније "откад сунце земљу греје", па реагују нервозно."

While his friend moderator-Simo agrees in everything: "Права интердисциплинарност која ће дати резултате ће се постићи кад историчари, археолози, лингвисти, етнографи престану да гледају на популациону генетику као на баука, и кад, што је још важније, генетичари престану да се баве историјским реконструкцијама. Ни једно ни друго ми не изгледа да ће се десити у скоријој будућности, бар не код нас.
Док се то не деси, хобистички приступ остаје једина могућност. Не треба занемарити да је сваки постојећи Пројекат и сваки појединачни резултат заправо учешће у неком будућем научном пројекту. Једног дана ће неко сабрати и систематизовати и што је још важније стандардизовати читаву ову област, па се можда генетичка генеалогија нађе на неком универзитету као студијски предмет. Али опет кажем, једног дана..."
https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=183.msg70601#msg70601

But what they fail to understand is that this was already confirmed by all serious scientific areas. So naturally DNA research regarding genetic genealogy is very recently discovered scientific area and it is slowly becoming real science that is already accepted by more then few academics, scientists and scholars.

"DNA was first isolated by Friedrich Miescher in 1869. Its molecular structure was first identified by James Watson and Francis Crick at the Cavendish Laboratory within the University of Cambridge in 1953, whose model-building efforts were guided by X-ray diffraction data acquired by Raymond Gosling, who was a post-graduate student of Rosalind Franklin. DNA is used by researchers as a molecular tool to explore physical laws and theories, such as the ergodic theorem and the theory of elasticity. The unique material properties of DNA have made it an attractive molecule for material scientists and engineers interested in micro- and nano-fabrication. Among notable advances in this field are DNA origami and DNA-based hybrid materials"

Furthermore i translated only a small part of a book from Aleksandar Stipcevic - Illyrians, history, life and culture. Second version issued in 1989.
For everyone but also for Nikola Vuk but also his friend Simo to see, so they can read and see that we have these things already confirmed, and its nothing unsure and unknown as he said there but rather very known about and generally accepted worldwide except in their Serbian isolation.

Which makes me ask myself, do these people read anything else except books issued by Serbian department for falsifying history? 
So, lets continue:


Quote

Illyrians, history, life and culture. Second version issued in 1989.
Chapter II, Illyrian remains on Balkans after downfall of antique civilizations:

Only recently science can give us answer on one another question that is very important about the subject that we are debating - the question about the relationship of old Illyrians and modern Albanians. Many experts today consider that it is proven that Albanians are the only Balkan people that are directly decedent from ancient Illyrians. Protected by the high and unreachable mountains and far from the roads which were used by barbarians in the time of big migrations of people, these last remains of Illyirians were preserved in many elements of spiritual and material culture of their distant relatives. Thesis that Albanians are remains of Illyirians was first time clearly formulated by German historian Johannes Thunmann in XVIII. cet. (1) He was claiming that it's historically impossible to prove any ethnic migration to territory of modern Albania from ancient times till today, Thunmann concludes that, judging by everything, people that live there today, lived on that territory since ancient times. This thesis were supported and accepted by many other historians. Among the first it was Slovenian historian and writer A. T. Linhart who claims that Illyrian language fully lives today, even though not that pure, in Albanian mountains (und noch heute, obwohl nicht mehr rein, in den Gebirge albaniens lebt) (2). But all of this was only guessing based on theory, but not opinions based on the scientific facts. The first one who will give scientific base to these thesis was an Austrian Georg von Hahn, major expert in Albanian history and Albanian language, all of his conclusions about autochthony of Albanians, he argumented with scientific facts.(3). Not denying old Balkan origin of Albanians, many historians and linguists in XIV. and XX.  century suggested different solutions for the question of Albanian origin. By some of them, Albanians are descendants of Thracians (Karl Pauli, Gustav Weigand, Dimitar Dečev),  by the others, from Dakomezians (Vladimir Georgijev) etc. But results that were achieved by the different scientific disciplines, especially in the few last years, have foreshadow many of these old doubts about this important question in paleobalkanistics. These researches have confirmed thesis that were brought two centuries before by the Thunmann(4).  Linguists were the hardest ones to accept these thesis before but also sometimes today. They will contribute to the mess that was present for the long time in the scientific circles about this issue. Today linguists mostly agree that it can't be proven with high certainty that Albanian language is remain of Illyirian one, because Illyirian is too unknown so there could be grammatical and lexical comparison between them, but analysis of onomastic and toponomastic definition gave enough evidence to support thesis about direct origin of Albanian language from Illyirian language and to make it most plausible.


(1), (2), (3), (4) - references, if anyone is interested i can post them too. 

Furthermore A. Stipcevic says: Other scientific areas have in many ways also contributed in claiming continuity of ancient Illyrians to modern Albanians. So archaeologists have played major role  researching material culture of Early Middle Ages, where they have concluded that there is no interruption in continuity from the ancient Illyrian times to Early Medieval time. And that many artifacts found in necropolis from VII century and VIII century (Kalaja Dalmaçes, Kruja, etc) typologically connect with Illyrian ancient historical culture.  Then there Stipcevic mentions Ethnologists who while researching extremely rich Albanian and still not enough explored ethnographic structure, they found plenty of various elements that directly derive from ancient Illyrian cultural heritage.

Furthermore, claimed by Stipcevic and all backuped by serious references, there is continuity and similarity found in ornaments and religious symbolic, folk dance, music, anthroponymic, toponymy,,

More about mentioned authors:

Aleksandar Stipčević -  Archaeologist, bibliographer, bibliographer, albanologist, librarian and essayist. Born in Arbanas, near Zadar on October 10, 1930. He attended primary school and high school in Zadar and graduated from the Faculty of Philosophy at the University of Zagreb in 1954 in archeology.

In 1977 he graduated from the Faculty of Philosophy in Zadar with the thesis "Religious Symbolism in Illyria". For a short time he worked at the Archaeological Museum in Zadar and at the Institute for Historical Sciences in Zadar, and in 1957 he moved to the National and University Library in Zagreb as head of the Department of Prints. In 1974, he assumed the duties of the Director of the JAZU Library (today the HAZU), and at the end of 1983 he moved to the then Yugoslav Yugoslav Republic of Lexicography Institute "Miroslav Krleža", where he took up the post of chief editor of the Croatian biographical lexicon.

In November 1987, after leaving the second volume, he moved to the Faculty of Philosophy of the University of Zagreb - Department of Information Sciences: Department of Library Sciences, where he teaches the following subjects: "History of Books and Libraries", "Bibliography" and "Sociology of Books and Libraries ". In February 1978 he gained the title of a Librarian Adviser, and in the same year JAZU recognized the position of a scientific advisor in the field of historical sciences. In 1990 he was elected as a science advisor in the field of information science. From 1970 to 1973, as a senior lecturer, as an external associate, he teaches "Introduction to Archeology" at the Faculty of Philosophy in Pristina. At the end of 1971 he was elected lecturer for the subject "Introduction to the history of books and libraries" at the postgraduate study of library, documentation and information sciences at the University of Zagreb. In 1978 he was elected honorary associate professor at the newly founded department of libraries at the Faculty of Philosophy at the University of Zagreb, and in 1987 he was elected full professor at the same faculty. Retired in 1997.

From 1987-1996. He was the head of the Department of Library Sciences at the Department of Information Science, and from 1992-1995. head of the Department of Information Science at the Faculty of Philosophy in Zagreb. He has held a number of responsible positions in library organizations: from 1967 to 1973 he was president of the Croatian Library Society and from 1967 to 1969. he is vice president of the Association of Librarians of Yugoslavia.

From 1992-1997. holds the office of President of the Council (later Council) for the libraries of the Republic of Croatia. In the period 1993-1996. member of the Committee on Human Rights and Rights of Ethnic and National Communities and Minorities of the House of Representatives of the State Parliament of the Republic of Croatia.

From 1973 to 1999 he is a member of the editorial board of the editorial board of the Annual Bibliography of the History of the Printed Books and Libraries. In 1968 he started publishing activity of the Croatian Library Society. He is the editor-in-chief of social editions of the Croatian Library Society until 1984. He is a professional editor in the editions of the Lexicographic Institute "Miroslav Krleža" (Second Edition of the Encyclopaedia of Yugoslavia, Croatian Biographical Bulletin, Croatian Encyclopaedia).

Since 1983 he has been a member of the Academy of Sciences and Arts of Kosovo since 2001, and since 2001 he has been an international member of Accademia Marchigiana di Scienze, Lettere e Arti in Ancona. He has also been a member of the PEN Croatian Center since 1985, as well as the Croatian Archaeological Society since 1966 and the Croatian Matic since 1962.

He received numerous awards for his work: in 1983 he received Kukuljević's charter for work in the library profession and in 1998 he was awarded the Order of Danica hrvatska with the character of Marka Marulić. The Zagreb City Award was awarded in 2004 and the Zadar City Prize for Lifetime Achievement. He was also awarded the Charter of the Faculty of Philosophy of the University of Zagreb for the highest achievements and achieved results in theoretical and practical work (2006). He was also awarded the highest Albanian prizes: gold medal "Naim Frasheri" for the contribution of "Illumination of Illyrian History" (2001) and "Skenderbeg", with the award by which the Albanian President rewards the most famous Albanians and Albanian friends who promote Albanian culture and the country (2015) .

He has participated at numerous scientific conferences in the country and the world. He was on study trips and scholarships in Italy, Germany, England, Korea, Jordan, Turkey, Denmark, Albania and many other countries.

He deals with the arts and religions of the ancient Illyrians, the bibliography, the general and national history of books and libraries, especially the questions of censorship and the general fate of books in society. He wrote the first synthesis of the art of Illyria and the synthesis of Illyrians that has so far had nine editions in four languages ​​(Croatian, English, Albanian and Italian). He has written many works and books about Zadar Arbanas. He has published over two hundred scientific and professional papers in Croatian, Italian, Albanian, English and French, both in national and international publications. In recent years, most of it is written about the history of Croatian books and Croatian libraries.

He has published the following titles: Arte degli Illiri, Milano 1963 (edition 1963), Discipline Manual,Zagreb, 1964 (in collaboration with Lela Canico and Janko Zivkovic), Gli Illir, Milano 1966 (translation into Albanian 1967), Bibliographia Illyrica, Sarajevo 1967 (supplements printed in 1974, 1978 and 1984), the Illyrians - history, culture , 1974, 1989, 1991 (translated into English in 1977 and in Albanian 1980, 1990 and 2002), Bibliography of Antique Archeology in Yugoslavia 1-2, Sarajevo 1977, Cultural Symbols at Ilira, Sarajevo 1981 (issue in the Albanian language in 1983, 1990 and 2002), History of the Book, Zagreb 1985 (editions in Albanian 1988 and 2000, in Arabic 1993 and in Persian language 1994, second, expanded and supplemented in 2006) , Censorship in Libraries, Zagreb 1992, About the Perfect Censor, Zagreb 1994 (Albanian Language Release 2002), Interpretations of Albanology, Skopje 1994, How to Avoid Censors, Zagreb 1997, Croatian Biographical Lecture , Zagreb 1997, The Destiny Book, Lokve 2000, The Social History of the Book in CroatsI-III,  Zagreb 2004-2008, T Radical Culture of Zadar Arbanas , Zagreb 2011.

http://www.matica.hr/knjige/autor/3/


Johann Georg,  von Hahn (11 July 1811 – 23 September 1869) was an Austrian diplomat, philologist and specialist in Albanian history, language and culture.
Hahn was born in Frankfurt am Main. In 1847, he was named Austrian consul in Ioannina, today in Greece. He was transferred to the Hellenic Kingdom on the island of Syros in 1851, and from 1869 was the consul-general in Athens. He is considered the founder of Albanian studies. He assembled and published source materials on Albanian language and culture, learned the Albanian language and demonstrated its membership in the Indo-European family of languages. He died, aged 58, in Jena.

His published works:
Albanesische Studien. 3 vols. Jena: F. Mauko, 1854; Vienna: Hof- und Staatsdruckerei, 1853 (reprint Dion.Karavias, Athen 1981)
Reise von Belgrad nach Salonik. Vienna: K. K. Consul für östliche Griechenland, 1861.
Griechische und albanesische Märchen. 2 vols. Leipzig: 1864; Munich/Berlin 1918 – as ebook and several Google Books scans at archive.org
Reise durch die Gebiete von Drin und Wardar. Vienna: 1867.
Contes populaires grecs Free Google eBook (1879). A.-F. Høst, ed.


Anton Tomaž Linhart - (11 December 1756 – 14/15 July 1795) was a Carniolan playwright and historian, best known as the author of the first comedy and theatrical play in general in Slovene, Županova Micka (Micka, the Mayor's Daughter). He is also considered the father of Slovene historiography, since he was the first historian to write a history of all Slovenes as a unit, rejecting the previous concept which focused on single historical provinces. He was the first one to define the Slovenes as a separate ethnic group and set the foundations of the Slovene ethnography.



Johann Erich Thunmann or Johannes or Hans - (August 23, 1746 — December 17, 1778) was a linguist, historian and theologian born in Thoresund (Södermanland) in Sweden. He studied at Strängnäs and Uppsala then left Sweden to study at Greifswald. Thunmann was professor of philosophy at the University of Halle.
Thunmann was one of the most important early authors writing about the language and origin of Albanians. The first serious attempts to present scientific explanation of the origin of Albanians began with Thunmann. He believed that the history and language of Albanians, besides Aromanians, were the least known European people in the West.
Thunmann was the first scholar to disseminate the theory about the autochthonous Albanians and to present the Illyrian theory of the origin of Albanians. Thunmann researched the origin of the term "Skipatar", the term Albanians use as their ethnic name. In 1774 Thunmann republished a three-language (Albanian, Greek and Aromanian) lexicon Theodor Kavalioti first published in 1770, and later added a Latin translation. Thunmann believed in Illyro-Thracian unity



I think this will suffice for now, so i ask myself again who is chasing the illusions and who is going after true scientists and historians and also confirming everything in the end with genetic genealogy?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 12:26:17 PM by Dema »

Duhan

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« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2017, 03:56:25 PM »
Do they at least agree that they are slavs (i2 and r1a) unlike the absolutely crazy serbs over at eupedias forum?

it would at least be nice if they were honest about their own origin, which I find strange because I always thought serbs saw themselves as slavs.

Flor

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« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2017, 04:26:04 PM »
Do they at least agree that they are slavs (i2 and r1a) unlike the absolutely crazy serbs over at eupedias forum?

it would at least be nice if they were honest about their own origin, which I find strange because I always thought serbs saw themselves as slavs.

Yes, they do agree and accept that (regarding the haplogroups in question).

And let me be clear, generally speaking, they have a decent project, as they have a much greater participation than us.

I just don't appreciate it when some of them try to manipulate our data, to advance their wishful thinking theories.

Duhan

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« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2017, 05:04:59 PM »
Yes, they do agree and accept that (regarding the haplogroups in question).

And let me be clear, generally speaking, they have a decent project, as they have a much greater participation than us.

I just don't appreciate it when some of them try to manipulate our data, to advance their wishful thinking theories.

Yeah I appreciate their project nonetheless.

What do they say about the J2b2 that was found in a proto illyrian sample?

Flor

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« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2017, 05:20:11 PM »
Yeah I appreciate their project nonetheless.

What do they say about the J2b2 that was found in a proto illyrian sample?

That's the thing, they have mentioned it a couple of times, but that's about it. When they talk about our J2b2, they make it seem like we have nothing to do with it, and are searching for connections with Bulgarians, etc.

Logic would say it's not a coincidence that J2b2-L283 was found in Bronze Age Dalmatia, and the Western Balkans having a great diversity of this haplogroup (seemingly the greatest within the Balkans). As I have mentioned several times, all of early Z1296 sub-branches (TMRCA 4300 ybp) are found in Northern Albania. Also in the Western Balkans (Croatia, Bosnia) and Italy, CTS3617 is showing a great diversity, which is a brother clade of Z1296.

So all in all, the Western Balkans currently is a far better candidate for the expansion of J2b2-L283>>Z2507 (where Z1296 and CTS3617 stem from), than the Eastern Balkans.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 07:22:32 PM by Flor »

Duhan

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« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2017, 07:22:09 PM »
That's the thing, they have mentioned it a couple of times, but that's about it. When they talk about our J2b2, they make it seem like we have nothing to do with it, and are searching for connections with Bulgarians, etc.

Logic would say it's not a coincidence that J2b2-L283 was found in Bronze Age Dalmatia, and the Western Balkans having a great diversity of this haplogroup (seemingly the greatest within the Balkans). As I have mentioned several times, all of early Z1296 branches (TMRCA 4300 ybp) are found in Northern Albania, but nowhere else so far. Also in the Western Balkans (Croatia, Bosnia) and Italy, CTS3617 is showing a great diversity, which is a brother clade of Z1296.

So all in all, the Western Balkans currently is a far better candidate for the expansion of J2b2-L283>>Z2507 (where Z1296 and CTS3617 stem from), than the Eastern Balkans.

At least it would be more honest of them to try to subscribe to some thracian-illyrian theory, saying that J2b2 is illyrian but ev13 is thracian (which I dont agree with, and I suspect a lot of ev13 in Bulgaria and the other south slavs is from vlachs)

but that leaves R1b-l23 out which I'f im not mistaken is in a very similar situation to j2b2 as in similarity in frequency and diversity (and being placed in west balkans)

Dema

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« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2017, 08:22:12 PM »
After Ken Nordtvedt separated I2a branches and calculated TMRCA also pinpointed its origin. People from Poreklo were among the first to accept Slavic expansion of this HG.
Their project is very nice and helpful, no one is saying anything about that. Also they are truthful to some situations, but many of facts or interpretations they will try to manipulate for their own personal interest.

For example:  They will try to recruit people into project with excuse they are neighbor countries, and later claim them as Serbs. Just as it happened to one I1 Croat. Where he said he doesn't feel as a Serb, then they were furious calling him a traitor lol.
Also they are very sneaky when putting all other nations and people inside of their project which name is Serbian DNA project. Since they are recruiting Bosnjaks, Croats and others inside more proper name of project would be Balkan DNA project or EX Yugoslav DNA project.

Also i dont really like them or trust them since one of them was asking me personal info on privat. And then strait away started leaking that info on their personal forum making twisted theories about me which all turned out like pathetic lies.

Also its not wonder that they accepted I2a theory so easily since they were never  really Western orientated. But rather Pro-Russian so it kinda suites them to also achieve genetic connection with that place.

A. Stipcevic wrote also about Illyrian movements thru other South Slavic countries but he clearly stated that Serbs were never really interested in that history. And did not really have some movements regarding Illyrian or Thracian identity.   Unlike for example Croats had.  Even tho not truthful movement but rather politically motivated to unite Slavs under whatever umbrella, and no matter how its called Illyrian or something else. Case of Ljudevid Gaj. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_movement   
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 12:35:55 AM by Dema »

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« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2018, 12:16:24 AM »
Interesting how they come up with things.. Beqiri from our project is not from Zheger. He is from Prishtina area.

As for J-M205 being originally Serbs, they seem to have short memories or they intentionally choose to forget things when convenient. I happen to recall that they even named this specific cluster among Serbs as the "Krici cluster". Krici as we know were a tribe that lived in northern Montenegro and were believed to have been part of the Mataruge clan/population. If that is true, we don't know. But what we actually know is that both of these clans were Latin speaking locals, so therefore most certainly they were Vlahs. Far from being Serbs. They may however identify as such today and that's cool, but labeling neighboring peoples belonging to this cluster as 'Serbs' seems a bit far fetched to me to say the least. Let's not forget their true origins, folks 8)

What i also realized is what they do is they first check at Albanians, and if Albanians dont have some specific haplotype they think its free to claim (grab) as Serbian, even tho in most cases does not have Serbian origin (Poreklo). This is also what they did with Vasojeviq klan (E-v13), which is clearly genetically not Serbian neither Slavic. They are very smart when there is need to count Slavic haplotypes among Albanians but they are not speaking about none Slavic haplotypes among them. Where at least 15 of that 20 per cent of E-v13 among them has to be Vlach or Albanian in origin. Also they never investigate how these people got Slavicized.

In this post this person named Milosh, who states for himself that he is ethnographer and is one of Poreklo admins, counts blood cells of Albanian DNK members to see Slavic influence. Therefore he concludes that I1-P109 Albanians must have been Serbs but also any M205 Albanians, aiming at me. Guy does not understand that M205 cannot be Serbian as was already explained in J2 thread (http://www.foleja.net/index.php?topic=14.msg5364#msg5364), but even worse he does not understand that we have both Mediterranean coastal and Balkan mainland branches found among M205 Albanians so him speaking about all M205 members together in first place shows that he does not even understand basic subclades.

Whats even worse in his post he first mentions Slavic influence but then he mentions Slavic / Serbian influence alluding that it must have come thru Serbs.

What i find funny is that its our R1a member Koci there on their list. Therefore they must be alluding that he is connected with Serbs ready to claim him. When in fact what we know so far is that Koci haplotype can eventually be connected with Early Medieval Slavs and not Serbs. When Koci split happened, Serbs didnt even exist. Furthermore this haplotype of R1a so far looks to be exclusively Albanian. Not found among Serbs at all. They cant even prove for R1a members that they have Serbian origin. While im not sure about I1-P109, but M205 is heavily debunked to have anything with Serbs, im sure about that 100%. And i win in every argument while they as usually change subject.

Here is post - https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=183.msg94897#msg94897

Also in this recent post same guy claims that Adem Jashari and Isa Boletini are I2a. This Milosh guy haplo is I2a also and he seems to enjoy the fact he might be connected to them (hes acting like they tested them) - https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=183.msg82719#msg82719
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 01:20:51 AM by Dema »

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« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2018, 12:28:57 PM »
What i also realized is what they do is they first check at Albanians, and if Albanians dont have some specific haplotype they think its free to claim (grab) as Serbian, even tho in most cases does not have Serbian origin (Poreklo). This is also what they did with Vasojeviq klan (E-v13), which is clearly genetically not Serbian neither Slavic. They are very smart when there is need to count Slavic haplotypes among Albanians but they are not speaking about none Slavic haplotypes among them. Where at least 15 of that 20 per cent of E-v13 among them has to be Vlach or Albanian in origin. Also they never investigate how these people got Slavicized.

In this post this person named Milosh, who states for himself that he is ethnographer and is one of Poreklo admins, counts blood cells of Albanian DNK members to see Slavic influence. Therefore he concludes that I1-P109 Albanians must have been Serbs but also any M205 Albanians, aiming at me. Guy does not understand that M205 cannot be Serbian as was already explained in J2 thread (http://www.foleja.net/index.php?topic=14.msg5364#msg5364), but even worse he does not understand that we have both Mediterranean coastal and Balkan mainland branches found among M205 Albanians so him speaking about all M205 members together in first place shows that he does not even understand basic subclades.

Whats even worse in his post he first mentions Slavic influence but then he mentions Slavic / Serbian influence alluding that it must have come thru Serbs.

What i find funny is that its our R1a member Koci there on their list. Therefore they must be alluding that he is connected with Serbs ready to claim him. When in fact what we know so far is that Koci haplotype can eventually be connected with Early Medieval Slavs and not Serbs. When Koci split happened, Serbs didnt even exist. Furthermore this haplotype of R1a so far looks to be exclusively Albanian. Not found among Serbs at all. They cant even prove for R1a members that they have Serbian origin. While im not sure about I1-P109, but M205 is heavily debunked to have anything with Serbs, im sure about that 100%. And i win in every argument while they as usually change subject.

Here is post - https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=183.msg94897#msg94897

Also in this recent post same guy claims that Adem Jashari and Isa Boletini are I2a. This Milosh guy haplo is I2a also and he seems to enjoy the fact he might be connected to them (hes acting like they tested them) - https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=183.msg82719#msg82719
Yh, apparently even our I1 is Serb according to them lol. I think it’s a matter of time till we find an Albanian with the E-V13 cluster found in the Vasojevic. Interesting that they decide to bring up Koci and say that he has Serb origin when as you say, his cluster so far has only been found in Albanians and is linked to earlier people. They believe that the Jashari are I2a1b as they have a theory that the Kuqi of Drenica are in fact Albanized Serbs who belonged to the a Slavic branch of Kuq which is I2a1b although I forget the name of the branch, this is purely Serb fantasy as we have a Kuqi of Drenica tested who in fact is part of the same fis as the Jashari and aren’t able to marry with them and this guy is E-V13>L241. As for Isa Boletini, Shala from a village near Boletin, Selac, and belong to the typical Shala R1b and so he is most certainly R1b as well . Their claims are just funny as of now and are pure fantasy as they have no factual basis
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 01:00:39 PM by Ujkan Vushaj »

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« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2018, 12:41:47 PM »
The theory that Albanians stem from Thracians has basically been debunked through linguistics. Thracian would create names of places and other things using two units joined together but this sort of thing doesn’t happen in Albanian and is impossible for it to happen in Albanian whilst on the other hand Illyrian, like Albanian, uses only a single unit from what we can tell. The Thracian theory doesn’t make sense historically either as if we migrated from Bulgaria/Thrace as the Serbs claim, it would’ve been recorded especially during Byzantine era which is when Serbs claim this migration occurred. Our language also wouldn’t be greatly influenced by Latin if we had origin from Thrace which was part of the Hellenic zone of linguistic influence. I believe that Thracians may have added some input into our admix and language but we don’t stem from them directly

Alban

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« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2018, 04:27:32 PM »
By the way, everyone agrees that ancient DNA can solve these questions best, but rarely anyone pays attention to it. Here's what ancient DNA from the Bulgaria looks like:

Calcolithic & Pre-IE migrations:
G2a2b2a1a1c1a              (4700-4600 BC)
G2a2b2b                        (4700-4500 BC)
R1b1a                            (4500-4200 BC)
H2                                 (3300-3000 BC)
I2a2a1b1                       (3300-3000 BC)
I2a2a1b                         (3300-3000 BC)

Early Bronze Age & IE migrations:
G2a2a1a2                      (2900-2700 BC)
I2a2                              (3400-1600 BC)
I2a2a1b1b                     (3000-2900 BC)
I2a2a1b1b                     (3000-2900 BC)

R1a1a1b2                      (1700-1600 BC)

Data from: https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#7/42.884/26.323

Looking at BA samples we have 5, out of which no IE groups associated with Albanians.  From earlier ones there is one R1b1a, but being pre-IE I doubt it's a subclade found among us today.