Autori Tema: ADN Antike  (Lexuar 9663 herë)

Ujkan Vushaj

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« Pergjigju #135 Me: Mars 16, 2019, 05:49:52 MD »
Visigoth I12031 - E1b1b1a1b1a(E-V13). Ky sample ishte me origjine nga Balkani sipas rezultatet auDNA. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16682-The-genomic-history-of-the-Iberian-Peninsula-over-the-past-8000-years

Ujkan Vushaj

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« Pergjigju #136 Me: Mars 21, 2019, 05:31:36 MD »
J2b2-L283 has been found in a sample from the Nuragic Bronze Age culture in Sardinia, the sample is I10553(1226-1056BCE). https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16729-West-Mediterranean-Paper-focus-on-Iranian-and-Steppe-ancestry&p=555789#post555789

The paper is suggesting that L283 may have been introduced to Sardinia during the Bronze Age by migrants from other Mediterranean zones such as mainland Italy or the Balkans, based on material evidence that shows contact between Sardinia and these zones. However, the sample is lacking in Steppe admixture and so it could be that these migrants had little genetic impact originally, that is if L283 can be linked to IE speakers in this case. I think it's likely that this sample belonged to a pre-Z615 branch of J-Z600.
« Redaktimi i Fundit: Mars 21, 2019, 06:22:12 MD nga Ujkan Vushaj »

shqipe

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« Pergjigju #137 Me: Mars 22, 2019, 01:20:41 MD »
3 additional samples with J2b-L283 came out today. All three in Sardinia around the same timeframe as the sardinian aDNA sample from yesterday.

Chronologically they fit well with the arrival of the sea peoples called "Sherden" to Sardinia. Sherdens have already long ago been hypothesized to originate from Illyrians.

The sherden wore kilts like albanians, and there are actually some words in paleo-sardinian which can be linked to albanian language.
The fact that a lot of these words, which are shared between albanian and sardinian, are actually related to ship-building(words like yew and wood) and navigation at sea(words like stream and stony peak), furthers strengthens this view.

But we should nevertheless be cautious not do draw conclusions just yet, because in the next few weeks we are probably going to see lots of new aDNA papers, which potentially could turn everything upside down. More samples from Italy and western balkans will surely clarify when and from where J2b-L283 got to sardinia.
« Redaktimi i Fundit: Mars 22, 2019, 01:22:31 MD nga shqipe »

Flor

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« Pergjigju #138 Me: Mars 22, 2019, 02:08:13 MD »
3 additional samples with J2b-L283 came out today. All three in Sardinia around the same timeframe as the sardinian aDNA sample from yesterday.

Chronologically they fit well with the arrival of the sea peoples called "Sherden" to Sardinia. Sherdens have already long ago been hypothesized to originate from Illyrians.

The sherden wore kilts like albanians, and there are actually some words in paleo-sardinian which can be linked to albanian language.
The fact that a lot of these words, which are shared between albanian and sardinian, are actually related to ship-building(words like yew and wood) and navigation at sea(words like stream and stony peak), furthers strengthens this view.

But we should nevertheless be cautious not do draw conclusions just yet, because in the next few weeks we are probably going to see lots of new aDNA papers, which potentially could turn everything upside down. More samples from Italy and western balkans will surely clarify when and from where J2b-L283 got to sardinia.

Interesting observation!

All four J2b-L283 samples come from the LBA Nuragic period. This haplogroup was not found anywhere in Sardinia prior to this period, and we know it was found earlier in BA Croatia and BA North Caucasus. Besides J2b-L283, we should keep in mind that we have a R1b-BY611* and some E-V13's, R1b-PF7563's in Sardinia, which would fit this timeframe given the TMRCA's. Nevertheless, I agree that we shouldn't jump to any conclusions just yet, but here is the interesting hypothesis that you mentioned in regards to Paleo-Sardinian languages:

(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Sardinian_language)

"Illyrian hypothesis   

According to Alberto Areddu[8] the Sherden were of Illyrian origin, on the basis of some lexical elements, unanimously acknowledged as belonging to the indigenous substrate. Areddu asserts that in ancient Sardinia, especially in the most interior area (Barbagia and Ogliastra), the locals supposedly spoke a particular branch of Indo-European. There are in fact some correspondences, both formal and semantic, with the few testimonies of Illyrian (or Thracian) languages, and above all with their theorized linguistic continuation, Albanian. The correlations include various central toponyms and microtoponyms; for instance Areddu offers the following correlations:

Sardinian: eni, enis, eniu 'yew' = Albanian: enjë 'yew, juniper'
Sardinian: rethi 'tendril' = Albanian dial. rrypthi 'tendril'[9] (although, this is an overt derivative of rrip ~ rryp ‘leather strip; belt, strap’)
Sardinian: àlase 'holly' (in Sard.: laruspinosu 'thorny laurel') = Albanian: halë 'thorn; lisp; corn beard; pine needle; black pine', halëz 'thorn; ear'
Sardinian: lothiu 'muddy', (top.) Lotzorai, Lothorgo, Loceri, Lotzeri = Albanian: lloç ‘muddy slush; mortar’ (however, this is a loanword from Macedonian ločka (лочка) ‘puddle; mud hole’)[10]
Sardinian: duri 'tree trunk, with branches shortened because it serves as a hanger' = Albanian: druri 'wooden, stick, pole'
Sardinian: dròb(b)alu 'bowels, gut of pigs' = Albanian: droboli ‘entrails, intestines’ (however, this is a loanword from Macedonian drebolija (дреболиjа) ‘odds and ends, bits and bobs’ ~ dial. Bulgarian drobolina (дроболина) ‘sliced, chopped intestines’)[11]
Sardinian: urtzula 'clematis', top. Orthullè = Albanian: (h)urth, hurdh 'ivy'
Sardinian: amadrina 'doe, hind' = Albanian: drenje, drenushe 'doe'
Sardinian: élimu 'rancor, resentment' = Albanian: helm 'displeasure, poison'
Sardinian: tzìrima, tzérrima 'rancor, insult, resentment' = Albanian: çirrma ‘shrill threats, insults’, çirrmë ‘loud scream, shrill yell’ (although, this is an overt derivative of çirr ‘to scream’)
Sardinian: càstia 'net to collect straw' = Albanian: kashtë 'straw, chaff'
Sardinian: thùrgalu 'creek, stream' = Albanian: çurg 'stream'
Sardinian: thiòccoro, ittiòccoro, isciòccoro 'bristly oxtongue (Helminthia echioides)' = Albanian: hith 'sour, harsh, bitter'
Sardinian: madérria 'grandeur, haughtiness' = Albanian: madhëri ‘majesty, grandeur’
Sardinian: theppa, tzèppara 'stony peak', top. Zeppara = Albanian: thep 'top, peak'
Sardinian: Òrol- item that is found in a good number of mountain microtoponyms, and is correlated by Areddu with Thracian Òrolos 'eagle'"
« Redaktimi i Fundit: Mars 22, 2019, 02:24:24 MD nga Flor »

shqipe

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« Pergjigju #139 Me: Mars 22, 2019, 03:50:21 MD »
Citim
Citim
All four J2b-L283 samples come from the LBA Nuragic period. This haplogroup was not found anywhere in Sardinia prior to this period, and we know it was found earlier in BA Croatia and BA North Caucasus. Besides J2b-L283, we should keep in mind that we have a R1b-BY611* and some E-V13's, R1b-PF7563's in Sardinia, which would fit this timeframe given the TMRCA's. Nevertheless, I agree that we shouldn't jump to any conclusions just yet, but here is the interesting hypothesis that you mentioned in regards to Paleo-Sardinian languages:
Very interesting how we also have BY611, V13 and PF7563 there too, i had not noticed that. Maybe those HG's will show up in Sardinian aDNA of the same period when more samples are tested there.

I also noticed that the Nuragic era sardinians had mtDNA which was also present in Srubnaya and Scythians, which means that the steppe ancestry brought by J2b-L283 probably was just diluted by time, just like the samples with steppe mtDNA didn't show steppe ancestry due to dilution.

Shalian i Drenasit

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« Pergjigju #140 Me: Mars 22, 2019, 09:10:25 MD »
The earliest European J2-M172 is found in Neolithic Sopot Culture in Hungary (sample ALE14, ca. 7000 ybp [zotpressInText item=”{P3BP8J38}” format=”%num%” brackets=”yes”]). Further testing most likely will show this men positive for L283 and then give proof of presence for 7 millennia in Southeast Europe.  https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-l283-origins-by-diversity-and-subgroups-focus-jewish-lineages/

Flor

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« Pergjigju #141 Me: Mars 22, 2019, 10:38:48 MD »
The earliest European J2-M172 is found in Neolithic Sopot Culture in Hungary (sample ALE14, ca. 7000 ybp [zotpressInText item=”{P3BP8J38}” format=”%num%” brackets=”yes”]). Further testing most likely will show this men positive for L283 and then give proof of presence for 7 millennia in Southeast Europe.  https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-l283-origins-by-diversity-and-subgroups-focus-jewish-lineages/

Ky ishte vetëm një spekulim. Në fakt i vetmi J2 nga kultura Sopot që u analizua më thellësisht doli J2a1-Z6063>SK1363, siç mund të shihet këtu: https://j2-m172.info/links/scientific-papers/#ancient

Shalian i Drenasit

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« Pergjigju #142 Me: Mars 22, 2019, 11:33:36 MD »
Ky ishte vetëm një spekulim. Në fakt i vetmi J2 nga kultura Sopot që u analizua më thellësisht doli J2a1-Z6063>SK1363, siç mund të shihet këtu: https://j2-m172.info/links/scientific-papers/#ancient

Aha ok. Pra teza qe ka ardh prej vollges eshte e vertet. Por ma heret ka ardh nga Kavkazi i veriut a prej kahit? Mendoj qe linja e dajve te mi eshte sigurisht J2b2. Duhet ti testoj sa ma shpejt jan fis Bytyq kryeziu.

Alban

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« Pergjigju #143 Me: Mars 23, 2019, 12:11:06 PD »
Nga cili vend jane?

Flor

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« Pergjigju #144 Me: Mars 23, 2019, 12:36:09 PD »
Aha ok. Pra teza qe ka ardh prej vollges eshte e vertet. Por ma heret ka ardh nga Kavkazi i veriut a prej kahit? Mendoj qe linja e dajve te mi eshte sigurisht J2b2. Duhet ti testoj sa ma shpejt jan fis Bytyq kryeziu.

Nuk besoj të ketë ardhur edhe nga Volga, por sipas të dhënave të deritanishme me mundësi më të mirë nga drejtimi i Kaukazit dikund në periudhën Bronzit.  Gjithsesi, të presim për më shumë të dhëna nga ADN antike.

Shalian i Drenasit

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« Pergjigju #145 Me: Mars 23, 2019, 03:05:35 PD »
Nga cili vend jane?

Nga tersteniku drenica ne mes te skenderajt dhe drenasit

Shalian i Drenasit

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« Pergjigju #146 Me: Mars 23, 2019, 03:19:37 PD »
Nuk besoj të ketë ardhur edhe nga Volga, por sipas të dhënave të deritanishme me mundësi më të mirë nga drejtimi i Kaukazit dikund në periudhën Bronzit.  Gjithsesi, të presim për më shumë të dhëna nga ADN antike.

Interesant prej cilit vend prej kavkazi

Shalian i Drenasit

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« Pergjigju #147 Me: Mars 23, 2019, 03:42:58 PD »
Ne faqen e eupedis shume ketu teza jan perhapur me ardhjen e indoevropiane prej jugut rusis. Per Haplogrupin J2b2 dhe R1b dhe ma moti i kum pas lexu. Nese ketu jan tezat e maciamot. A jan authentik nuk dihet.
« Redaktimi i Fundit: Mars 23, 2019, 03:49:58 MD nga Shalian i Drenasit »

Shalian i Drenasit

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« Pergjigju #148 Me: Mars 23, 2019, 03:52:52 MD »
Shume her lexoj se esht J2b2 proto ilire por qka esht me EV13 dhe R1b a do me then qe nuk jan ketu linje proto ilire? Ja se vetem J2b2 ka qen ilire dhe EV13 dhe R1b esht bere ilir per shkak J2b2? Spi kuptoj bash ketu gjera..

Flor

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« Pergjigju #149 Me: Mars 23, 2019, 04:27:33 MD »
Shume her lexoj se esht J2b2 proto ilire por qka esht me EV13 dhe R1b a do me then qe nuk jan ketu linje proto ilire? Ja se vetem J2b2 ka qen ilire dhe EV13 dhe R1b esht bere ilir per shkak J2b2? Spi kuptoj bash ketu gjera..

Jo, nuk do me thënë ashtu. Falë ADN antike nga Dalmacia e periudhës së bronzit, mund të themi me siguri të lartë që Ilirët së paku kanë patur J2b2-L283. Me siguri kanë patur edhe haplogrupe/ linja tjera që gjenden sot midis nesh. Por na duhet ADN antike nga periudhat në fjalë për një pasqyrë më të mirë.